IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

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IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

bulldog88
Here Is A QUESTION.....Can Anyone Answer?.....(1) JOE CARPENTER Is A Member Of The New York Carpenters Union....JOE Has 4 Pension Credits.....(2) JOE Has Seen Difficult TIMES.....(3) The Estimated VALUE Of 4 Pension Credits Is About $40,000 DOLLARS???....That  Money Was Put Into The Pension Fund On JOES Behalf For Work He Has Done As a UNION CARPENTER......The LAST 5 Years Have BEEN HARD ON JOE......He Has Been On The OUT OF WORK LIST....And Is LUCKY If He Gets a FEW JOBS EVERY YEAR,,,,,,,iN THE Year 2008 Joe Had 280 HOURS OF WORK.......IN the Year 2009 JOE HAD 296 Hours Of Work......In The Year 2010 JOE HAD 299 Hours Of Work.......In The Year 2011 JOE HAD 255 Hours Of Work.....In The Year 2012 JOE HAD 284 Hours Of Work.......THE UNION THEN SENT JOE A LETTER.....Stating That HE WILL LOSE ALL HIS PENSIONS CREDIT FOR (LACK OF WORK).......The CARPENTERS UNION HAS A RULE....That A Carpenter Needs 300 HOURS OF WORK EACH YEAR.........AND AS YOU CAN SEE,JOE HAS UNDER 300 HOURS OF WORK For The Last 5 Years......So The RESULT IS.......(1) JOE WILL NOW LOSE ALL 4 PENSION CREDITS....(2) Those 4 Pension Credits Are Worth About $40,000........(3) THE CARPENTERS UNION WILL KEEP THAT MONEY....AND JOE WILL GET $NOTHING!!!!....(4) IS IT LEGAL FOR THE CARPENTERS UNION TO DO THIS???????....HOW CAN A CARPENTER LIKE JOE EVER GET ANY PENSION CREDITS IF THE UNION HAS A POLICY LIKE THIS?.....AND BEING ON THE OUT OF WORK LIST MAKES IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE SOME MEMBERS ARE ON THE LIST FOR MANY MONTHS AT A TIME.......ALSO~~~>>> WHERE DOES THIS MONEY GO?........HOW MANY MEMBERS HAVE LOST THEIR PENSION CREDITS?......IF THE UNION HAS BEEN ENFORCING THIS POLICY FOR YEARS.....WE COULD BE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS?
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

bulldog88
I Have READ A FEW ARTICLES....But Have Never Seen Anyones Pension Credits Being Taken Away For (LACK OF HOURS).....Mostly The Articles Deal With HOW MANY HOURS ARE NEEDED TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR A PENSION....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Retirement_Income_Security_Act

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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

Norman Saul
In reply to this post by bulldog88
Perhaps if we relied less on the list and more on advanced shaping we could get more work. If they want to eliminate the match let's get on the side of power. If we are out getting our own work we are the ones to be matched off the list not dying on it. Your hypothetical carpenter should try to put together a group that could be declared a class. It would be cheaper to buy him off then pay the lawyers.
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

tester
In reply to this post by bulldog88
www.buynothingchristmas.com
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

INQUIRY
In reply to this post by bulldog88
Bulldog this is an excellent point. Think of it asDoug Mcarron's tapping into a bottomless income source. Just blacklist the guy & make sure he only works a certain amount of hours. The UBC is getting rich off the "supposed" protection of a pension. All about the almighty dollar where the UBC's concerned.
Ted
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

Ted
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by bulldog88
BullDog88, start here:

http://www.cfao.org/PDF/Participants/FundInformation/Pension/spd_2012/article_03.pdf


This is NERCC's:

http://www.carpentersfund.org/fund_news/2011_Pension_SPD.pdf

There is a wealth of info online, but first, call the NYCDCC & request their edition for your DC Rules regarding your Pension Beneifts and vesting requirements. It will ocver the exact same topical inofrmation, with rules applicable to the NYCDCC. If you can't get any satisfaction, you can contact EBSA.

The UBC years ago initiated the money follows the man rule, however, each DC within this alleged International Organization fights every other DC in the country as all of them have separate interests, so - say you move  you inform them of the new address, the money from your prior DC will be held by them until the day you retire and they use it to shore up their own funds (Green, Yellow & Red Zone) until they have to release it, not sooner. Hardly a fair system but that is how they play games with your career & your future security. They got theirs, the hell with you. BTW, they (THE FUNDS) don;t particularly care if you ever vest, because to them, it's their money & they will keep it.

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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

bulldog88
In reply to this post by bulldog88
Thanks 4 Info Fella's....Also Saw This Article ...Dont Know If It Applies Or Not????......(1) If JOE Carpenter Had 4 Pension Credits....Wouldnt He Be %20 Vested In The Pension Plan????....According To a Rule Called....(Rule Of Parity)....Joe Would Not Lose His Pension Credits If He Was %20 Vested???......Joe Would Only Lose If He Were (Zero Percent Vested)....This Is The RULE.....Rule of parity. Under the so-called "rule of parity," the employee loses the prior service
for eligibility purposes on a permanent basis following the break in service period. As a
result, the employee must start over in satisfying the service requirement, as if he/she
were a new employee. For the rule of parity to apply: 1) the employee must be a plan
participant when the break in service period begins; 2) the employee generally must incur
a minimum of five consecutive breaks in service; and 3) the employee must be zero
percent vested in his/her accrued benefit under the plan. Once a participant becomes
partially-vested (e.g., 20% vested under the plan's vesting schedule), the only break in
service rule that that may apply is the "one year break" rule discussed earlier.....Here Is The LINK....http://www.erisadiagnostics.com/pdfs/A49/servicecrediting.PDF
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

bulldog88
In reply to this post by bulldog88
I Really SUCK At MATH....Cause I'm Only a Carpenter,And Not a Pension EXPERT.....But Isnt This The FORMULA....(1) A Carpenter Becomes (VESTED) After They Receive 5 Pension Credits....(2) According To The (Rule Of Parity) If a Member is %20 Percent Vested The Union Cannot Take Away His Pension Credits.....(3) Joe Carpenter Has 4 Pension Credits, That Means That JOE Is 80 Percent VESTED.....
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

John
This I found interesting and think it deserves further scrutiny.
Could happen to someone who was hurt in a car accident or during military service and cannot return to work as a carpenter. Are  the books  available to  examine and evaluate . I would not want a  working man losing their pension that way. Especially since convicted  leaders keep theirs.
  Good men starve while the rats get fat
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

bulldog88
In reply to this post by bulldog88
There Is Also ANOTHER WAY The Carpenters Union Makes MILLIONS Of Dollars Each Year/MEGA BUCKS....(1) If a Carpenter Has 299 HOURS Of Work or Less...The Union Gets ALL Of That Money...And The Hard Working Carpenter Gets NOTHING.....Because That Carpenter Failed To Get the (300 Required Hours For a 1/4 Pension Credit)....(2) If a Carpenter Has 599 Hours Or Less...The Union KEEPS 299 HOURS....And The Carpenter Only Gets (300 Hours).....Because That Carpenter Failed To Get The (Required 600 Hours For a 1/2 Pension Credit....Multiply These Numbers Times (Hundreds Of Thousands Of CAPENTERS) Around The United States....And The Numbers Are (MIND BOGGLING!!!!)... Who Keeps These Records For.........Hours That Are Owed By The Employers?........Missing Hours?.......Lost Hours?...Hours That The Carpenters LOST Because They Failed To Satisfy The UNIONS F#CKED UP PENSION POLICIES.....Does This MONEY Go Back Into The Pension Fund?......Or DOES it Get Lost?......Are There Bank Accounts Involved???.......Are Taxes Payed On This FREE MONEY?.......(The Bottom Line Is....These Brothers & Sisters Are Hard Working Carpenters....And This Money Was Put Into Your Pension Account On Your Behalf By The Employers....And Somehow The UNION GOT IT....And That Is WRONG!!!!!....THE SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE FIXED!!!!
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Re: IS IT LEGAL FOR THE UNION TO TAKE AWAY A CARPENTERS PENSION MONEY?

Daniel J. Franco
In reply to this post by bulldog88
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:06 PM, bulldog88 [via A Mobilized Membership Is An Irresistible Force] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here Is A QUESTION.....Can Anyone Answer?.....(1) JOE CARPENTER Is A Member Of The New York Carpenters Union....JOE Has 4 Pension Credits.....(2) JOE Has Seen Difficult TIMES.....(3) The Estimated VALUE Of 4 Pension Credits Is About $40,000 DOLLARS???....That  Money Was Put Into The Pension Fund On JOES Behalf For Work He Has Done As a UNION CARPENTER......The LAST 5 Years Have BEEN HARD ON JOE......He Has Been On The OUT OF WORK LIST....And Is LUCKY If He Gets a FEW JOBS EVERY YEAR,,,,,,,iN THE Year 2008 Joe Had 280 HOURS OF WORK [0 vesting pension credits.].......IN the Year 2009 JOE HAD 296 Hours Of Work [0 vesting pension credits.]......In The Year 2010 JOE HAD 299 Hours Of Work [0 vesting pension credits.].......In The Year 2011 JOE HAD 255 Hours Of Work [0 vesting credits.].....In The Year 2012 JOE HAD 284 Hours Of Work [0 vesting pension credits.].......THE UNION THEN SENT JOE A LETTER.....Stating That HE WILL LOSE ALL HIS PENSIONS CREDIT FOR (LACK OF WORK) [Read Pension SPD - Permanent Break in Service, pg 24.] .......The CARPENTERS UNION HAS A RULE....That A Carpenter Needs 300 HOURS OF WORK EACH YEAR.........AND AS YOU CAN SEE,JOE HAS UNDER 300 HOURS OF WORK For The Last 5 Years......So The RESULT IS.......(1) JOE WILL NOW LOSE ALL 4 PENSION CREDITS [Joe has 0 vesting pension credits. Curious, how did you calculate 4?]....(2) Those 4 Pension Credits Are Worth About $40,000........(3) THE CARPENTERS UNION WILL KEEP THAT MONEY....AND JOE WILL GET $NOTHING!!!!....(4) IS IT LEGAL FOR THE CARPENTERS UNION TO DO THIS???????....[See Pension SPD, Pension Vesting, p5; ERISA] HOW CAN A CARPENTER LIKE JOE EVER GET ANY PENSION CREDITS IF THE UNION HAS A POLICY LIKE THIS?.....AND BEING ON THE OUT OF WORK LIST MAKES IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE SOME MEMBERS ARE ON THE LIST FOR MANY MONTHS AT A TIME.......ALSO~~~>>> WHERE DOES THIS MONEY GO? [It stays in the fund.]........HOW MANY MEMBERS HAVE LOST THEIR PENSION CREDITS? [This would be statistical data that would need to be complied by the Benefit Funds.]......IF THE UNION HAS BEEN ENFORCING THIS POLICY FOR YEARS.....WE COULD BE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS? [Yes.]

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