In the case of full mobility let me say on 1 of my jobs in Brooklyn we called the hall for a carpenter to do formwork on walls. I fired 3 carpenters in 3 days due to the fact they had no idea how to do their job. By law I had to pay these men what was due them. This is going on throughout the industry and is driving us crazy. If we cannot hire who we want as long as they are members of the DC then none of us would ever sign a contract. It is the unions job to make us money or you have 0 employment. You guys have to get serious about full mobility or lose it all
'Full Mobility' is an attempt to 'cure' the symptoms rather than the cause of the skill issue. It is entry onto the OWLs that needs correction. Giving practically total control to the contractors guarantees to make our problems worse for all of us.
It is evident with experience and information that 'Full Mobility' will further embolden and allow contractors additional opportunities to:
*circumvent Out-of-Work Lists (OWLs).
*force acceptance of cash payments and forgoing of benefit payments in exchange for current and future work, thereby committing tax evasion, benefits fraud and extortion;
*ignore OSHA and other health and safety laws, thereby increasing the likeliness for health and safety violations and incidences;
*enforce work production quotas, which are expressly forbidden in our CBA's;
*commit age, sex, and race discrimination;
*increase the hiding of faulty materials and poor and incomplete workmanship;
'Full Mobility' will eliminate for many members job opportunities and opportunities to up-keep and increase one's skills and knowledge. It encourages and increases competitiveness between members. For the reasons and others, 'Full Mobility' is anti-union. It unequivocally violates founding principles of our labor union.
Given enough time and opportunity, 'Full Mobility' will allow the 'bad' contractors to more quickly and to a greater degree financially undermine the 'good' contractors. More 'good' contractors will go out business more quickly leaving ever more 'bad' contractors, who have to become worse to just to survive. It will be survivalism at its worse. For most contractors it will be a race to the bottom. Many union contractors will become little to no better than non-union contractors. If you and others insist on "full Mobility or nothing" rather than an equal partnership then we all will eventually have nothing.
If in fact "they had no idea how to do their job" and you had to pay them, I agree that this is not right. However, you already select 2 out-of 3 workers, and most contractors request from the OWLs apprentices for their third. Please note that there are no "members of the DC"; only local unions have members. Your statement, "If we cannot hire who we want as long as they are members of the DC then none of us would ever sign a contract.", shows ignorance to the origins/history of labor unions. Your statement, "It is the unions job to make us money" is not correct. It is NOT the union's job to make a contractor money. It is the responsibility of the union to provide skilled and apprenticing labor. It is the responsibility of a contractor to profitably manage jobs.
LET US NOT FORGET THAT FULL MOBILITY WILL FURTHER STOP OOWL CARPENTERS FROM MAKING A LIVING. AND BY STOPPING MEMBERS IN THIS MANNER IT WILL ALSO STOP THEM FROM EARNING A RETIREMENT AND HAVING HEALTH BENEFITS. THE ELECTRICIANS OF LOCAL 3 IN NYC HAVE IT RIGHT IN THEIR FURLOUGH SYSTEM, IT GIVE ALL MEMBERS A CHANCE TO EARN WAGES AND BENEFITS.
I suggest that the union should look to its own members for the problem.
-What percent of your members are long-term "painkiller" users? (and how many sell them?)
-Why do the smartest and most prime members work as Site Safety Managers at non-union sites? (West 42 St)
-Why did Carpenter wages go up 30% in the last 5 years while national incomes dropped?
-Why do unions support a president that encourages unlimited illegal immigration, providing non-union contractors with an unlimited cheap workforce?
-You guys had it good, but you have priced yourself out. $100 vs. $20?
Good luck. Be nice to the older developers and owners that still use you - you need to earn their respect every day.
To Daniel: You don't seem to have an open mind about the issue of "Hiring" men to "Work" for owners of businesses. I don't think you would pay someone for doing nothing, or actually causing more work, because of their inability. For some reason guys like you think "Union" means keep the unskilled, drug user, alcoholic, unproductive worker, just to collect dues is good enough. I believe it has long past time to ensure that "All" men that represent a "Union carpenter" be worth more than non-union. That is what pride is all about. It's not just a contractor that should demand this, it has always been the desire of all good productive, proud of their skills, carpenters!
Tell us why sending out unskilled, non productive men for years has been acceptable?
Retiree you have it right-Thats because you come from the old school and know how this business works
Yes it is my job to manage a job right to make a profit but no job can be managed right if the workers that are sent to him do not have the right skill set.
Daniel is dead wrong and his reasons for denying full mobility are complete bullshit
If the union sent us well skilled men that know their work we would have no problem in hiring off the list.
Every man that belongs to a DC local should have either full apprenteship behind them or have come from another job with the proper credentials. We have done work in the Philadelphia Dockbuilders jurisdiction and when you call for a man he can weld, burn, drive piles and whatever his skill calls for because you cannot get in that local unless you complete their training program. In New York I can get my neighbor a book who doesn't know anything about construction and the next day he is making $90.00 per hour
That is the reason your union has such a bad name. As far as fraud and not paying benefits we only do public work and are closely watched. It is the unions job to come up with a fool proof method to insure things like that do not happen.
If I Was a Foreman on a Job.....I Would Detect in 10 Minutes If a Carpenter Had SKILLS.....If The Carpenter Did Not Have The Skills Needed For That Job....I Would Have Him Stack Wood.....Stack Sheetrock....Distribute Materials.....All Day Long.......Then You Could Lay The Carpenter Off At The End Of The Day If Needed......If A Company Or Foreman Does NOT KNOW HOW TO WORK A CREW....And Loses Money.......Perhaps You Should Find Another Line Of Work!!!......You Make It Sound Like There Are Nothing But Scumbags On The Out Of Work List...Ive Been Doing This A long Time Son.....And Let Me Tell You....Every Great Carpenter Ive Ever Met Was (Without) Work At One Time Or Another!!!.....Or Put Their Name On The Out Of Work List!!!!..There Are Thousands Of GREAT CARPENTERS On That List!!!....Fight Full Mobilty!!!.....No Way In Hell We Will Allow The Companies To Hire 99 Percent Of Their OWN Workers On Every Job In NYC!!!!...You Companies Already Manipulated The Court Ordered Out Of Work List FOR TOO DAMN LONG!!!!....With Your FRAUD TECHNIQUES!!!!!.....(REQUESTING YOUR OWN WORKERS)....
"Then you Could Lay The Carpenter Off At The End Of The Day If Needed">>>>>>>> Nope! Fire his ass! No Lay Off, No U/I! Isn't that what got us in this position in the first place. The employers sre squarely to blame for the mobility mess. Think about this before you answer. Had they done so previously, would unqualified workers been an issue @ all?
You Must Remember This
A Kiss is just a Kiss
A Sigh is Just a Sigh...............
move sheetrock till the end of the day at $97.00 an hour times 3 or 4 days before you find a keeper puts the job $2,400 behind. and what if he needed 4 guys? is that fair?????? FULL MOBILITY FOR SKILLED LABOR!!!!!!
the greedy $$$$$$ whores recruited me, not the other way around. all of a sudden im no good but the whores still want my dues money. fuck off. Anytime you want lay me off for good but the fat cats at dc will no longer get my dues $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. the contractors are always crying poverty also so please lay me off for good. YOUR ALL SCUM !
Tommy D has it right
If I have to weed through guys on the owl until I get a good one that knows his work thats bullshit. No contractor has a problem hiring good skilled workers no matter if they come from the list or not. As far a Bulldog 88 goes I've been in the contracting business for over 40 years and no way are you old enough to be calling me son
Hey Mr. Bullshit, I mean Bulldog you failed to address the point re: Aug 30, 2012; 7:56am. Lets say an unqualified guy is a non union member on the list & he gets sent to you, he can't even file a grievance if you IMMEDIETELY fire him cause he does not enjoy that particular CBA protection because he's not a member. Even when a NYCDCC member does same, if he doesn't perform, what you have no trust in the bought & paid for council asuring your victory? Stop blaming the list, though weeding through it to correct this minimally invasive flaw is & always was the councils responsibility. The unqualified worker argument is just another mobility tactic. Had you been doing what you needed to, or at least running to the Fed stating your being threatened by Fordes goons you wouldn't be in this mess now would ya, chickenshit!
You can complain all you want about what is coming off the list. The District Council has every apprentice for two weeks a year. The "Contractor" has them for the other 50. According to the Union rules you are as much resonsible for training a skilled and qualified workforce as we are. The fact that companies use apprentices as cheap labor to unload trucks, insulate, and do fire stop for four years while refusing to train them is on you. Not us. I'm sure they were all full mechanics on every ticket you ever had signed! Fuck You!
Great Point Mr. Hogan! There's a great degree of thruth to what you say in that the companies and more so their particular foreman who would be co-responsible for attaching that apprentice to a skilled mechanic have refused to do so leaving them with what, a by product if their own doing. Mr. Bull Pussy will most likely say to you there was no skilled labor to attach that apprentice to. Too often the apprentice sysytem has failed from both ends but as you indicate, and I've personaly experienced time & time again, and whereas in public forums & town halls the more seasooned men have raised this/your point again & again to the new administration as well as the old, where specifically therein you were ignored, but now they do nothing but cater to what the associations want the companies previously needed to enforce their end of the CBA's but refused to do so in the name of cheap hump labor and now Billelo & Lebow want to give them "Helper Scrappers". Bullshit Bulldog! Itys mostly your fault.nd when the DC announces there's unskilled labor, they've refused to effectively deal with the circumstance. Instead they do what D. McCarron says=MOBILITY.
By the way anyone notice how the mobility language in this W & C is different from that of the March MEMBER VETOED CONTRACTS. Nice try NYCDCC think we'd miss that!
I have been on both sides of this issue, a company man + a guy who came off the list. I started out in my early 20's + did over 30 years in the buisness. Too young for retirement but the body is starting to decline rapidly. I no longer have the speed to compete with a company man. I never thought the time would come but this is a young mans buisness + we need to alter the pension systym so that no young guy willing to learn is out of work + no older guy has to stay just to get his healthcare. The pace of the buisness has also increased to make matters even tougher. Let's find a solution to this + move on. I have no interest in being either a super or owner so lets get the eager beever working + cut me loose.
Is this the only trade that constantly talks about how much a member must put out in order to make a company hole.I have many friends that are electricians & Plumbers and this is never the topic of conversation.
Have we on our own lowered our worth as tradesmen.
Hey Mr Hogan
I was told to go on this site to have a laugh
Thank You for giving me a good one
It is because of one sided thinking assholes like yourself I switched in 1999 from a union contractor to an open shop.
If you think the union contractor paying your men close to $100 per hour should also train them then
in time you will all be working open shop
I currently employ 175 men of various trades
They all know their work with 28 of them being former union employees that gave up.
I keep them working 12 months a year pay the prevailing wage along with blue cross and a 401K
If I advertise for a certain trade and they turn out to not know their work I let them go period.
My men are happy and make a good living and do not have to deal with the joke you call the carpenters union
Doug Mc Carron has been a great help to all open shop contractors in the USA because he like yourself is a complete asshole. You are destroying your own union from within
Again thank you Mr Hogan for being such an asshole