Dear Richard, where did this come from?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
26 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Dear Richard, where did this come from?

anon
Banned User
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Herman Benson

Are Carpenter local unions still "labor organizations?"
 
A discussion by Herman Benson
The question is startling but legitimate. The Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act defines a "labor organization" as one "in which employees participate and which exists for the purpose, in whole or in part, of dealing with employers concerning grievances, labor disputes, wages, rates of pay, hours, or other terms or conditions of employment..." By that standard, Carpenter locals, totally disarmed under the current union structure, seem to have clearly lost the right to designation as "labor organizations."
In the Carpenters union, locals have been merged into district and regional councils where they are stripped of all participation in negotiating, signing, or enforcing collective bargaining agreements. Full authority over dealing with employers, from start to finish, is arrogated by an executive secretary treasurer, who is armed with extraordinary authoritarian power, not only over collective bargaining, but also over every other sphere of union life.
Council bylaws make clear how sweeping and authoritarian that power is: "The EST shall have the power and authority to appoint and remove representatives for and on behalf of its Local Unions to act as Trustees or all negotiated Employer/Union Trust Funds including, but not limited to, annuity, health and welfare plans... Accordingly, all trust agreements and/or plan documents shall be amended by the authorized representatives of the Local unions to reflect the foregoing appointment and removal process." And just to make it crystal clear: "The Council shall have the exclusive power and authority to negotiate and execute Collective Bargaining Agreements for and behalf of its affiliated local unions, except to the extent the International Union exercises its jurisdiction or authority." Carpenter councils may or may not decide to submit contracts for membership ratification, but that decision involves a relation between the council and the total membership. In such a decision and such a process, local unions are irrelevant.
All business agents, representatives, all personnel that have anything to do with contract negotiation or enforcement are selected by the all-powerful EST. And that power extends beyond the area of relations with employers into every aspect of union activity.
Locals, now walled off from collective bargaining, have been so weakened that they are incapable of doing anything effectively. Most dues money goes directly into the district council treasury. As required by Federal law, locals still elect local officers; but locals are expressly forbidden to pay them salaries or to hire any other staff personnel except clerical employees, no educational directors, attorneys, political action reps, no one. Not one person can hold any paid union position of any kind, except simple local clerical employees, unless selected by the regnant EST.
One carpenter in New York argues on the internet that all local unions in the Carpenters District Council should be abolished because the reorganization of the international union under International President Douglas McCarron has already squeezed all life out of them. As he says, with justification, local unions have been deprived of almost every autonomous right and have no effective constitutionally means of affecting what happens in the union, not even in their own assigned jurisdiction and certainly not in the district. And so he concludes, it is pointless and misleading to continue the fiction that locals still have any meaningful role. But while he describes the facts accurately, his conclusion would make matters worse. Precisely because the international has become so egregiously authoritarian, locals' unions, even in their eviscerated state, have become the only arena left where rank and filers can easily assemble to discuss union affairs, express dissatisfaction, and even just let off steam. Members have lost the right to act through their locals in collective bargaining; but so far, they retain at least the right to talk.
Where does all that leave local unions in the Carpenters structure? In their relationship to the union, they resemble the social committees, educational committees, women's caucuses, coalitions of black trade unionists, or any of the many other committees or subunits that unions create to carry on their activities. Like them, locals have no role in collective bargaining.
Where does it leave the district and regional councils? Since they bypass and preempt the now lifeless locals in collective bargaining, they should be required to fulfill all the obligations imposed on locals by Federal law, including the direct secret ballot vote by members in the election of council officers and in the levying of dues and assessments.
Posted by Herman Benson at 3:24 PM 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

anon
Banned User
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Ted
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Ted
In reply to this post by Herman Benson
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT OH WISE ONE...THE COUNCILS HAVE TAKEN ON SO MUCH POWER THAT THEY HAVE IN FACT BECOME THE LOCALS....SEE THE DISSENTING OPINION IN HARRINGTON V. CHAO, thus they should have to abide by the rules for Locals.

was it the wise one OBAMA?, BUDDAH? JESUS?

THE QUALIFICATION TO THE ABOVE IS SIMPLY THIS - THE DUMMIES IN LOCALS WHO HAVE SIGNED AWAY THEIR RIGHTS TO MONITER & CONTROL THEIR OWN ACTIVITIES, ELECTIONS, BYLAWS & FUND TRUST AGREEMENTS....UNLESS & UNTIL THEY ACQUIESCE, THE COUNCIL & THE INTERNATIONAL CAN SHOVE IT UP THEIR ASS & DORROUGH IS CORRECT.

370 IS EDUCATED & OTHER LOCALS NATIONWIDE WERE NOT, & THUS WALKED TO THE TRENCH, HITLER STYLE, KNELT DOWN & ALLOWED THEMSELVES TO BE SHOT...AND THAT HAS BEEN DOUG'S TRICK FROM DAY ONE, BULLY, EXPECT ZERO MEMBERS TO HAVE THE TIME, BRAINS OR FORTITUDE TO MOUNT A CHALLENGE......SO THEY DIDN'T GET SO MUCH AS A WIMPER, LET ALONE A FIGHT....THEY ALL JUST WENT, THANK YOU SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER, CAN I SHINE YOUR PRICK FOR YOU, WASH THE CAR, GIVE YOU A RIDE BACK TO THE AIRPORT. IF I SUCK YOU ASS LONG ENOUGH DOUG, MAYBE SOMEDAY YOU WILL LET ME WEAR A CHEAP SUIT TOO...OH BOY..WHY DOUG, IF I GET TO DO THAT, I WILL CERTAINLY DRINK THE KOOL-AID OF YOUR CORORATISM AND WILL SURELY SEEL MY FELLOW BROTHER DOWN THE RIVER & STAB THEM ALL IN THE BACK.

FYI - Anon, back in the day, when men were men & woman knew the difference, a man's word, honor & integrity meant something and that is why the Locals still mean something, because the men stood together & did not allow the shitbag companies to shit all over them as has been done since Doug took over. Men who lived, worked, shopped, bought homes & paid property taxes in their home Locals went to work before out of state travelers, asswipes with the International Books or illegal aliens or cash workers as is being done now & since Doug took unfettered dictatorial control.

note: the LEBO post re" Congreesional Hearing in 98 showed 65 Councils....Doug has that down to 38 today and in 10-years it will be 20 Councils. All he is doing is consolidating his power & the control over the assets of the FUNDS - then he & his cohorts are stealing said Funds & callin them market losses......bottom line, this is Criminal RICO material - period. If he is not stopped, he will make MADOFF look like a choir boy in comparison!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
In reply to this post by anon
Dont get to giddy. I have an answer coming for  Mr. Benson. Also

"the first real argument against simply dissolving the locals does not come from a carpenter."

 Mr. Benson does NOT advocate dissolving the locals and you just cannot resist your propaganda BS.

"They have to be able to be involved in real discussions on real issues." There will be no discussions with you. Your not interested in discussions. When anyone exposes your propaganda BS you resort to name calling while hiding behind your keyboard.

It is a shame that John has let what was once a such a great informative site visited by those who care about our union go in the crapper so he can protect the likes of you. In that you have been successful in your mission. Go get a Franky gob

As far as your boy Franky goes tell him he can kiss my ass. He will be closing my Local only if the Judge tells him he can.We are not the empty emasculated shells that are the NYC Locals. Not yet at least. We may not be victorious but we will put up a fight.We will not roll over and play dead. We certainly will not be deterred or discouraged by your UBC propaganda bs
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
. But while he describes the facts accurately, his conclusion would make matters worse. Precisely because the international has become so egregiously authoritarian, locals' unions, even in their eviscerated state, have become the only arena left where rank and filers can easily assemble to discuss union affairs, express dissatisfaction, and even just let off steam. Members have lost the right to act through their locals in collective bargaining; but so far, they retain at least the right to talk.

Hermann Benson

and in our case stick it in Spencers ass
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Daniel J. Franco
In reply to this post by anon
In response to anon's Jan 26, 2011; 07:01pm post:

Though I haven't yet argued directly the fallacy of "Local Unions Have Outlived Their Original Purpose", I have stated other points why we should resist having our local unions dissolved and/or merged by entities other than a local union's members.

Please see:
http://danieljfranco1.blogspot.com/2010/12/lu608-dissolution-lu157-merger.html
http://danieljfranco1.blogspot.com/2010/12/lu608-lu157-merge.html
http://danieljfranco1.blogspot.com/2010/10/dissolution-of-lu608.html
http://danieljfranco1.blogspot.com/2010/10/dissolution-of-lu608-2.html
http://danieljfranco1.blogspot.com/2010/10/dissolution-of-lu608-3.html

See also:
http://danieljfranco1.blogspot.com/2010/08/lu157-regular-meeting-2010-08-23-2010.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
In reply to this post by anon
Let it be said before we start that Mr. Benson has my greatest respect. He has many years in the fight for organized labor and his knowledge is beyond that which ten men or women could hope to achieve in a lifetime. As we like to say in the job. “I could not even carry his tools: However. Dare I say that I do NOT accept Mr. Bensons premise that our locals are mere social clubs and we have “clearly lost the right to designation as labor organizations" I would hope that Mr. Benson will accept the following as a rebuttal to his position and an open debate of his conclusions. I hope he does not take this as personal disrespect.
   
        To accept Mr. Benson’s argument is to concede that all the UBC locals are the same emasculated shells that are the New York City Council affiliated locals. We are not!! We also have not been further emasculated by the US Attorneys Office who in a legal brief, and rather erroneously I might add, declared “all locals, their officers and rank and file are “members” of the Council. They are NOT and we are NOT ‘members” of any council. This lie was told by the US Attorneys office so that their can be no argument against the Review Officers power. I for one would love to see that designation argued before an unbiased Judge and court. There are clear distinctions between our situation and structure and that of the NYC locals which clearly still qualify us as “Labor Organizations”. To simplify let me just say our Locals upstate are not dead yet as is the case with the NYC and many other UBC Locals decimated by McCarron and his cronies like Glenn, Spencer and Garrison.

To start with like the NYC District Council and the Empire Council are in Trusteeship and presently both are being raped by the International crew. Unlike the NYC situation the upstate locals are not in Trusteeship the council is. We are not bound by the trusteeship on the Local level. In NYC just because the Council is in trusteeship the Locals are as well. In the upstate locals, even though in violation of the UBC Constitution, the trials of members are processed and conducted at the Local level. Special dispensation has not been given to the Locals as required and the trial protections laid out in the Constitution are ignored. In NYC all trials are conducted at the Council level. The trials however are still processed by the Local executive board and tried by a local kangaroo court. In the upstate locals we still dispatch our workers from the locals out of work list and by individual Local dispatchers. In NYC and other UBC Councils workers are sent out by the Council with a council wide dispatcher. Hatchet Jack Garrison is going to force us into a council wide dispatching system like the corrupt one in NYC by mid March if we do not beat him in court. This includes 100% mobility. A contractor can come into the Albany area with his entire crew and not hire a single Albany member. That is fact as detailed by Garrison on December 13,2010So we to can be. In the upstate Locals we deal directly with employers and not the council. This system is presently under attack as we speak and the council is moving against our jobs and with no bylaws yet in place giving control to the council they have started appointing council job reps. Here At local 370 we do not have any bylaws voted on by the membership which give complete control of the Local to the Empire Council. Here at Local 370 we do not even have any bylaws at all as required by law.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
   As you can see Mr.Benson despite the propaganda of the NY Carpenter McCarron has not squeezed the life out of all locals and we are still a qualified “labor organization” We will not be for long if the rank and file are dissuaded from action by the misinformation and defeatism of your article which has already been seized upon by the International propagandist “NY Carpenter” .While we are victims of many of the powers you attribute to the Council and its EST we are still not totally controlled and still have some rights. We are about to lose all those rights and complete domination imposed on us by the International and Empire Council. We are about to become the very picture of doom and gloom you paint in the article
   
What shall we do? Roll over and live with it. Shall we to be the victims as many of the rank and file across the country have become including NYC. Shall we do nothing as the others did and then reap what our inaction and lack of fight sows? I think not. We will fight to save our locals from the council dominance that is presently imposed on the NYC Locals and not matter what propaganda the shill from the UBC International whom Mr. Benson refers to as the “One carpenter in New York” we will not lay down and just give our local over to the corruption that is the UBC Council system. The corruption that is exemplified by the New York City Council. The corruption that is the nest of low life common criminals as is exemplified by the NYC and other UBC district councils. Corruption still being nurtured by Spencer and McCarron even under the scrutiny of Dennis Walsh. A corrupt cesspool spearheaded by the Spencers, Garrisons and Glenns under Douglas McCarrons UBC. Win or lose we will not give our local over to this corruption without a fight. We will fight and not be deterred despite the agenda of this so called “NY Carpenter” so careful not to use his own name. We will fight and not be deterred despite the tripe posted by this NY carpenter so careful not to expose his true identity and therefore his true agenda with his own name. This discussion was not initiated by this shill to engage Mr. Benson in an earnest discussion on the plight of the Locals. It was initiated to further his ongoing propaganda mission to deter any opposition of the rank and file to Spencer and McCarron. I am afraid Mr. Benson has taken the bait and given us an article that despite its merits is already being pointed to with the declaration that The Esteemed Hermann Benson says the Locals are worthless and do not fight for them    
       
          We do not accept the assumption that we are the same powerless shells as many of the UBC Locals are. We are still alive and will fight to remain so. That is not to say we are not under attack to put that final nail in our coffin and to make us the same “non labor organizations”  that is the reality of many UBC Locals described by Mr. Benson. Reduced to the status of “social clubs” where members get to chat and blow off steam but nothing else. Regulated to the same oblivion that is the NYC Locals. Victims of the destruction the UBC with their man “Hatchet Jack” Tom Garrison are moving to impose on the upstate locals, The same destruction that we are told we must vote in place or they will pull our charter.

     One has to wonder why, if we are indeed the same mere shells as the NYC Locals and other UBC locals, are they threatening our local’s charter if we do not vote in Local bylaws giving complete control of our local to the Empire Council at February’s meeting. If the UBC International has the right, according to the UBC Constitution bylaw sections repeatedly posted online by the “NY Carpenter” propagandists, to complete control of the locals why is it we must pass these bylaws by vote or else. Why the need for the or else??? Why. Because the UBC propaganda is a lie. Why. Because despite the foregone conclusion of Mr. Bensons accepted reality we are NOT dead yet. With the right financial backing, with the right labor attorney and with our chance in court we could defeat the UBC machine at its own game. Look to our brothers in the North to see McCarron has already had his head handed to him. Look to our BC brothers and sisters who successfully extracted themselves from the yoke of McCarron and the UBC. How was that possible if as the propagandists would have you believe the UBC International and their crime infested Councils has every right to complete control of the Locals. How is that possible if Mr. Benson’s woeful conclusion is correct and the locals are lost? How was this fight won if the locals have “clearly lost the right to designation as "labor organizations??” Look to the success of Kevin Price or the CUDI of a not to distant past.

   There are clear distinctions between our locals and the New York City locals and in his thesis I find Mr. Benson is many times confused between legitimate, although rather ambiguous, UBC Constitutional bylaws, and the garbage called council bylaws which are illegally imposed on the Locals. He intertwines them and gives the reader the impression these share the same legitimacy. They do not!! These garbage bylaws are imposed on the Locals not because they are legal and legitimate, as is the propaganda lie perpetuated by the UBC and their shills such as this “NY Carpenter”., but because and only because as Mr. Benson has recently stated. ” Douglas McCarron and the UBC have deeper pockets than the rank and file and would be almost impossible to beat.” One would wish that Mr. Benson did not present these garbage bylaws in such a light as to mislead the rank and file and give the impression they are UBC Constitutional bylaws which we must be bound by. The fact is they are imposed on the locals by criminals with deeper pockets and better lawyers. Perhaps the battle would be futile but to not fight is how the NYC and other UBC Locals got where they are in the first place. For members not to be educated is how the locals have been lost one after another. Swallowed up by the corruption of McCarrons Council system. To let some UBC propagandists bully them in to submission is how they got here in the first place. I for one will not take that road. Perhaps the deep pockets and new friends will materialize for us as we hope. Perhaps they will not. I for one will not concede our Local, our democratic rights or my need of the brotherhood of organized labor to a corrupt mob infested Council system without a fight.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

anon
Banned User
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Richard Dorrough
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
"Upstate locals are in the same boat as NYC locals, you are bound by the trusteeship of your district council. "
Again you do not have a clue. We are not under trusteeship. Just because YOU repeat the spew does not make it true. We discussed this very issue at our monthly meeting with the Eastern District President Haines where it was declared in the record that the upstate Locals are NOT in trusteeship the Locals are NOT.
 
The NYC Locals are bound by the Supervision because unlike the Upstate Locals you have been declared a "member" of the council by the US Attorneys Office so the RO can control you. We are not.

 Our Local Officers have been dealing directly with the employers and still do. The only change is they have come out of the closet and declared themselves council employees only. There are no stewards sent to resolve disputes
 
You have no clue what our locals do or do not do. Until you do shut your mouth and stop posting propaganda that fits your ignorance and agenda.If the council had the complete control of us as you claim and we should all roll over and give up as you would like why are they threatening our charter if we do not vote in bylaws without the wording "You will be bound by council bylaws" What difference would it make.

John may be all giddy because you were able to make a moron like Spencer look silly. I am not impressed. I still think your a rat and a punk and someday I hope we get to meet and you can run your mouth to my face.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

anon
Banned User
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
"Upstate locals are in the same boat as NYC locals, you are bound by the trusteeship of your district council."

"NYC locals are not under supervision.
Neither are the upstate locals.

Now which is it??So we are not in trusteeship but bound by the trusteeship.

I dont give a rats ass how many times you write it. YOU ARE bound by the Trusteeship. We are not. Your relationship with the council is one of erroneously declared membership while ours is affiliation
 
The change to dealing with employers has just happened as I said over and over. A designated Council job rep was just announced along with the plans for a Council dispatch system WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE.100% mobility.WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE. We do NOT HAVE bylaws that give control of our local to the Council as you do.WE DO NOT have trials or grievances by the council as you do.Stop repeating your BS over and over and then tell yourself its true.

 Although you refuse to either accept it or comprehend it we DO have more powers than the NYC locals. We have not had our nuts completely cut off as you have but that is what we they are trying to finish off. Is is true that you do not have a clue as to the status of our Upstate locals so stop running your mouth as if you do
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

anon
Banned User
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
"Upstate locals are in the same boat as NYC locals, you are bound by the trusteeship of your district council."

This is what you wrote. It does not say might as well be it says we are. We are not BOUND by shit. Its your delusion.



Which parts do you not get or refuse to accept??


What powers do the upstate locals enjoy that NYC locals do not? "

The change to dealing with employers has just happened as I said over and over. A designated Council job rep was just announced along with the plans for a Council dispatch system WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE.100% mobility.WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE. We do NOT HAVE bylaws that give control of our local to the Council as you do.WE DO NOT have trials or grievances by the council as you do.Stop repeating your BS over and over and then tell yourself its true.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

anon
Banned User
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Richard Dorrough
If your council makes a decision, your local is bound to it.  

BS we are not bound to shit and have told the council to go f.. itself

Kangaroo court or not it is a local trail committee and processed by the local eboard which again makes you full of shit.

Stick you magic ball in your ass. Our grievances are processed and filed at the Local and not the council so again your a liar. I know what a grievance is and the process required by the UBC Constitution which our Local and Officers ignore so tell your magic ball to go fuck himself

Our dispatching system is local and will stay local unlike yours in New York so weak this

Our employers dealt directly with our elected Officers until Garrison and Haines has designated a job service rep. They called NOT the Council as they do in NY but Local 370 and were serviced by our elected Officers regardless of council title so again your a liar and clueless

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Pat Nee
In reply to this post by Herman Benson
This is Herman Benson from the Association for Union Democracies view on our locals. I was heartened to hear that he intends to make a submission to the courts on our proposed bylaws.  
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Tom McGuire
In reply to this post by Ted
Ted, you make my point on mobility perfectly in your fourth paragraph when you say we used to work where we lived and therefore cared more about the LOCAL area and that men went to work before out of staters. I hope Al saw that post. So members who live in jersey shouldn't be going to work before those who live in the jurisdiction? Just curious to see your answer brother. Do you believe men who have a vested interest in an area and who live and pay taxes in that area should go to work before those who live outside the area? You can't have it both ways. Either you're for or against mobility brothers and sisters. Funny how what Levi calls a non issue keeps rearing its head. Obviously its an issue or it wouldn't keep coming up. Ted seems to realize this. Good luck NY'ers.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Dear Richard, where did this come from?

Tom McGuire
In reply to this post by Richard Dorrough
Hey Rich, lately it seems like you just want to stir shit. Whats up your ass? Not getting enough fiber or something? Did you recently join one of the NYCDC locals? Be nice. NYC is our home , and while your reasonable input is usually helpful, this recent spate of nuttiness and anger is too much. Our DC is under supervision, not the locals. Easy to comprehend.
12